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Open Thread: Houston Shooter Joe Horn – One Man Neighborhood Watch or Vigilante Murderer

By Carmen D. on Friday, December 7th, 2007, 8:08 am Comments

In the 80’s it was New York City’s Bernhard Goetz. Now, in 21st Century America, we have Houston’s Joe Horn. There is no question that Joe Horn ended the lives of the two men he watched stealing from his neighbor. Horn shot the two men killing them both. Joe Horn pushed outside, directly defying instructions from a 911 dispatcher to stay safely inside his home as police arrival was imminent. The police arrived on scene seconds after Joe Horn had killed the two men.

More than two weeks after these killings; no charges have been filed against Horn.

The entire 911 calls between Joe Horn and dispatcher. He called back after killing the two men.

Have Americans gotten so attached to “stuff” that it’s okay to take a human life to protect that “stuff” even if it’s not your “stuff”? Or is this about something else? Is this about the illusion of powerlessness against crime and criminals?

“What’s missed in all this rhetoric,” wrote Kay Walton of Houston, “is that the general public is fed up with being victimized by thugs, punks, and trash who prey on defenseless people.” But are these people’s fears justified? How bad is the crime in Houston? And what is it about Texans that leads many of us to believe Horn’s actions were justified? I posed the question to some sociologists, attorneys and a criminologist.

Stephen Klineberg, a sociology professor at Rice University, suggested it was part of our culture to see things in terms of good and evil and feel a compulsion to take the law into our own hands. “With all our sophistication, we’re still a part of the Old West,” Klineberg said.

Our laws, including the recently passed “castle doctrine,” seem to underscore that fact. Texas is among a minority of states that allow their citizens to use deadly force to protect not just life but property under certain circumstances.

As far as crime goes, Klineberg notes that, according to his Houston Area Survey, crime has eclipsed traffic and the economy as the issue people see as the region’s biggest problem.

But is it really? Bob Walsh, professor of criminal justice at the University of Houston, says that despite the media hype and politicians’ focus on crime in campaign speeches, perception is not always reality.

As my colleagues Matt Stiles and Mike Glenn reported in October, the rate of all violent crimes — murders, rapes, aggravated assaults and robberies — decreased 20 percent from 1990 to 2006. The drop in the nonviolent crime rate, such as burglaries, thefts and stolen vehicles, is even more dramatic: about 42 percent.

That said, I suppose I could keep trying to roll my Sisyphean rock up the hill and keep insisting that it’s a bad thing to kill other people when we don’t have to.

But maybe I’d be better off leaving you with the comments of Patrick McCann, president of the Harris County Criminal Defense Lawyers Association.

“At the risk of being quoted, I’m not going to weep for those two,” he said of the burglars. “I guess what this comes down to, was this good judgment? No. Was it legal? Probably. Is it something that anyone is going to indict him for? Probably not.

“We are in Texas. Things are different here.” Missing trees for the forest, Lisa Falkenberg, Houston Chronicle

Another question: Honestly now, do YOU think a black man shooting two white men dead after declaring “I’m going to kill ‘em.” to a 911 dispatcher would still be walking the streets of Texas?

Your turn.

  • Hello Houstonian, welcome to the conversation. If you read more posts on this site, the answer about how we value all human life here will become plain. To answer your question, yes there would be an "uproar" if any man ran out of his house looking to shoot fleeing criminals in the back.

    And you clearly have NOT been following the story of Joe White, who is black and defended his family from a "lynch mob" in New York. Read on:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1943439/posts
  • Houstonian who would be proud
    Yes, I do believe a black man who shot two white men who were robbing his neighbors house, proceeded to advance on said black man by entering said black man's property and then fled after facing a gun would still be walking the streets.

    I would applaud anyone who stands against thugs and criminals such as these two men, especially when said men are known criminals and drug traffickers (I'll even ignore the fact that they are in our country illegally, performing illegal acts).

    I would be proud to call Joe Horn my neighbor, even if he was black, or any other race for that matter. In a situation like this, the issue boils down to what is legal and what isn't legal. Joe Horn acted within the law, while the other two men were acting far, far outside the law.

    That said, I don't believe the men should have died. However, I do believe they should have been incarcerated.

    Now let me ask you a question: If all three men were of the same race, whether it be white, black, hispanic or another, would there be such an uproar? I'll be waiting for an e-mail response on that one.
  • fcg#p
    also, warning shots may look good on t.v. but no police force will ever do that for fear of hitting an innocent bystander or unnecessarily damaging property. you also have to realize that giving someone time to turn is also giving them the time to pull a trigger. granted, I was not in mr horns shoes but I probably would have handled it differently.
    having said that, I have on 2 occasions had to use a gun to defend myself. I understand the dynamics of the situation and the culture of my state therefor, I am more than willing to give mr horn the benefit of the doubt.
  • fcg#p
    he was within his legal right according to tx. code
    § 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY.
    A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
    protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
    under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
    actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
    or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property;
  • Marie
    Hi Carmen,

    I'm rather cynical about our legal system so I don't believe Mr. Horn will be prosecuted for his crime.

    With the highly charged climate in this country regarding immigration, folks will believe Mr. Horn deserves a medal of honor for his criminal actions.
  • Marie
    trefcg#p Says:
    "trespassing is an overt act in texas..as well as in florida and south carolina. shot in the front, back, it makes no difference."

    Okay let's look at this scenario. Were the burgulars trespassing on Mr. Horn's property? Did the neighbor hire Mr. Horn as licensed security for his property? If not, there were 3 criminals on that day, with Mr. Horn being at the top of the list, not as a hero, but as a murderer!

    Next these people will be offering excuses for these university, mall and church "shooters" making national news lately. I guess these murderers thought their liberty was somehow being compromised too, trefcg#p?

    What is this attitude? Shooting humans as sport? Even the law enforcement officers have been held to a standard on this...firing a warning shot or stand to be accused of excessive force. Hmmm...excessive force? Perhaps they've never heard of that in Texas justice.
  • fcg#p
    marie,
    "Shoot first and ask questions later. Since when was burglary punishable by death?"

    ...since 1789... this happened in texas not san francisco or seattle! citizens in the fly over states have the constitutional right to make their own laws. trespassing is an overt act in texas..as well as in florida and south carolina. shot in the front, back, it makes no difference. this isn't a t.v. western where you wait for the bad guy to turn around and draw. this is potential life or death with the benefit of the doubt going to the citizen and not the criminal. so all of you vacationing felons, you have been warned! stay out of other peoples stuff or you might get shot.
  • Hi Marie, welcome to the conversation. I agree with you. Why would you leave your house and walk into this situation? Further, he said to the operator that he was going to "kill 'em."

    The facts that one was shot in the back and an officer arrived to SEE the actual shooting makes prosecution clear. What a jury will decide, I have no idea.
  • Marie
    Mr. Horn should be prosecuted. He told the 911 operator what his intentions were then ignored the operator's instructions and carried out the murders.

    That's exactly what it was, whether they were illegal immigrants or not. Mr. Horn murdered two men that did not threaten him or his property. One was shot in the back, so what type of threat was that to Mr. Horn?

    This is some type of tribal law, some type of primative, 1920's behavior where there is no due process. Shoot first and ask questions later. Since when was burglary punishable by death?

    I hate crime just like anyone else, but child molesters and rapists get their day in court when the damage they inflict is far more worse than stolen material possessions.
  • Hello equilizer, welcome to the conversation.

    You wrote:"...I think Mr.Horn gave a little balance to they we (middle class suberbia) should protect our childrens neighborhoods!!!!!!"

    Oh. Kind of like Taliban gangs in Afghanistan enforce their laws? What American values are we over there fighting for exactly? I thought 'due process' was one of the tenets of democracy we are attempting to export.
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