Kai Thanks for the China Matters link. That's new to me. I will check it out thoroughly.

Cheers back!

Carmen, thanks for the further thoughts, the kind words, and your approval of spicy dissent! ;)

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you've undertaken the kind of examination of Orientalism you describe; it comes through in the way you think about a lot of these issues. That's why I read your blog! Like I said somewhere else, I think I'm just generally pissy at the moment about the ways in which China and the Chinese are discussed, and not discussed, in media. Sorry about that. Maybe Yobachi is right that bringing up the Orientalism of the vast majority of news coverage about China is a derail; but then again it does say "fearless conversations about race" up top!

One tricky aspect of these discussions is that the word "Chinese" refers to both an ethnic group and a nationality, which can lead to some blurred lines between criticisms of a nation-state or government and, yes, racist xenophobic stereotypes against a people. I see those lines blurred a lot and it is very grating. There are also of course reactionary interests in the US whose interests it serves to fan the flames of anti-Chinese sentiment.

Anyway, returning to Darfur, may I suggest that China Matters has brought some interesting in-depth analysis to the subject.

As for Joey Cheek, I'm sure someone else will pick up whatever protest he was going to undertake anyway, so I don't really know what the CCP it will accomplish by barring him. I guess it's like their version of our "no-fly lists", just a way to create hassles for people the government doesn't like.

Cheers.

Hey Yobachi, welcome to the conversation! Kai is an ally, a blogamigo and a brilliant writer and thinker. If you haven't checked out his spot, you are in for a treat if you head over to www.zuky.net.

Everyone in the anti-racism space moves about the world as they see fit. I am happy to talk with most people even adversaries if I believe there is some growth to be shared in the exchange. Further I do not disagree with Kai that some of the hollow human rights hype is fueled by an "us" "them" dynamic which is steeped in the racial hatred and discrimination against Asian people in this country's history.

I am glad to say that was not the case here. My perspective about China and Darfur is clear to me.

But my hunch is that some readers have never even questioned their position through the framework of "Orientalism." It just so happens that I have and I hope others reading this thread will take away an expanded view of the issues surrounding our discussion of China.

I like dissent. It keeps things spicy. ;)

Carmen, personally I would not have allowed for kia to distract from the important issue at hand by sucking you into a rhetorical chest match about saying something you simply did not say; that she chose to read into it because she had an agenda to push, and a rant on her heart against "US liberal self-righteous[ness]" that she wanted to get off her chest. A rant that seems evident to me for which she sit and waits for an opportunity to fire off, like John Wayne in a bar with his hand on his gun hoslter.

But that's just me.

Yippie, the player finally posted for you. I'm so glad!

Kai, thanks for staying engaged.

I hear what you're saying about using "China" instead of being more specific. Truth is tho', despite my best efforts, I often say blacks, Latinos, Asians, whites when I am speaking of some segment of those populations; we are all individuals anyway.

Please do not think that I am new to consideration of how the 'American lens' influences my views of China. I've done a lot of emotional and intellectual reflection in that arena in environments/dynamics that you might find unexpected.

I will contemplate your idea of symmetry. Darfur is a big issue for me. I have been connected to this region for so many years. First as a journalist covering slavery in the region years ago and consistently right up to now. I don't know what the symmetry is for me. I mean I'm still on a one woman boycott of Coca Cola (Gawd I miss Schweppes seltzer!)

In 2002 during the Olympics, I was still sitting on the couch in my pj's dealing with PTSD from what I went through on 9/11. During that craziness I was only thinking about "retaliation."

I'm rambling, but mostly I want you to understand that no matter how much you may perceive my lens to be clouded, at least it is not reflexive.

Thanks for your reply, Carmen, and for taking my tart remarks in such a productive way. Same to you Danielle. I appreciate that.

Where does the "fifth of humanity" thing come from? Whenever someone says "China [verb]", as opposed to, say, "Municipal party leaders in Chengdu in the Szechuan province", they are inevitably referring to a fifth of humanity. I contend that it is a habit of Orientalism to deploy such broad-brushed language, because Orientalist conditioning would have us believe that there's a scary yellow mass which deserves our simultaneous revulsion and appropriation. Anyone can say "I am not an Orientalist" but don't you think it deserves deeper interrogation than that? The white lens effects us all, myself included. Every time you refer to "China the totalitarian state" that's just how it sounds to me. I don't know how to tell you that it sounds silly, having lived there. "Authoritarian" is arguably warranted (if it's possible to keep 1.3 billion in check, which I would argue is impossible), but "totalitarian state"? Hmm. Well, we can agree to disagree.

Let me put it this way: my parents are US citizens (academics) who find more freedom living in Hong Kong or Beijing than in LA. If what they experience is totalitarianism, I'm not sure what the word means. If it means "a country where people get unjustly thrown into jail without charges", um...yeah. If it means, "a country where the media doesn't tell the full story"...can you see the problem here?

Let me ask you this: when the Olympics are held in the US, is your first instinct to write about protesting the event because of US imperialistist wars around the globe? Did you publish essays about how disappointed you were that the media was not talking about the US selling weapons and drugs to fund terrorism in South America and the Middle East? Maybe my beef is this lack of symmetry. Olympics in LA? No talk of illegal wars or Iran-Contra dealings or anything like that, it's just a sporting event. Olympics in Beijing? Pollution and totalitarian human rights violations. Interesting.

Of course, I do have a lot of criticism about various policies and behaviors of the central CCP as well as the corrupt municipalities, including business dealings involving Darfur (which are dwarfed of course by US arms distribution in the region). I actually got myself into a good deal of trouble with authorities in China because of my views and activities. But I maintain that Orientalism has a lot to do with how we in the US think about these issues and discuss a country.

Hope that makes a little bit of sense, I realize it's a bit of a random jumbled brain stream. Sorry for being part of the universe toying with you. It happens!

Peace.

Kai, how did we get into a discussion about the fifth of humanity that lives in China?????? I do not believe more than a handful of people were directly responsible for revoking Cheek's visa so that is where my accusation rests.

I speak for myself at this site and I am clear that my problem with China's bureaucratic response to Cheek is not cloaked Orientalism. I have to say I am surprised and disappointed you would so quickly frame my position as such without asking me for more information.

Although I have never lived in China, I have opinions about a whole lot of situations that I have not experienced directly. I'm an economist by training, I understand the totalitarian position and how it is directly connected to China's overall explosive economic success. You do not hear me droning on and on about its lack of "civil rights." I have a problem with China's less than aggressive policies with regard to Darfur and I will make no apologies for that and will not concede that Orientalism has anything to do with it. Further I do not accept that it is "ugly" for any person anywhere to speak out against anything they have a problem with. What is exclusively American about that?

I've got plenty of problems with what's going on in the good ol' US of A and I talk about that plenty. I put my money where my mouth is and volunteer time to make things better. I spend a fair amount of time outside the US and was just talking with my husband (who is not American) about how my sense of 'Americaness' was so much less critical to my identity these days than it once was.

Funny your comment should come just now. The universe is obviously toying with me.

@Kai
I personally did not see the phrase or inclination of "the fifth of humanity that lives in China." any where referenced in this piece. Furthermore, what about the 1.5 million Chinese citizens who were forcefully removed from their homes for the Olympics. Don't they have rights.

You have a point with the American Administration who have a hell of a lot to answer to. As do the Chinese administration for Darfur, Tibet, workers rights, and so many more dehumanizing campaigns.

Orientalism, is no where found in this piece and the majority of pieces I have read regarding the Beijing Olympics, and the protest movements for Darfur and Tibet.

Rhetoric is a writing device utilizing this device with research and critical thinking skills is not a crime.


The U.S. says that they will protest the visa revocation, and I know it's not going to go anywhere. China owns a large amount of our debt and the administration knows that.

Thank you Carmen for spreading this.

Danielle
Modern Musings

Who exactly are cowards? Do you mean the fifth of humanity that lives in China? Or someone specific? Some specific interest in the far-flung municipal bureaucracy that makes up the CCP organizational structure?

Hehe, I love that the US is bombing and occupying countries halfway around the world, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives, yet its citizens and financiers feel qualified to lecture other nations on human rights. It's classic ugly American behavior.

Personally I've lived in China and struggled against various government policies there for various reasons, but frankly standard US liberal self-righteous stick-waving has become too cliche for me to seriously address. It's Orientalism cloaked in human rights rhetoric.